The World Shines Again - An Interview with The Newton Brothers
The Newton Brothers (Left, Andy Grush - Right, Taylor Stewart) - Photo By Josh Shultz
CineConcerts was lucky enough to spend some time with the incredible composing duo, The Newton Brothers (Andy Grush & Taylor Stewart). The Newton Brothers are notable composers, producers, conductors, and multi-instrumentalists best known for their scores in motion pictures such as: Oculus, Gerald’s Game, Ouija: Origin of Evil as well as Netflix’s Extinction and The Haunting of Hill House. Most recently, Andy and Taylor re-teamed with frequent collaborator, director Mike Flanagan, to create a terrifying score fit for the adaptation of Stephen King’s The Shining sequel, Doctor Sleep (out today). In a fascinating discussion that goes into their composing techniques, relationship with director Mike Flanagan, and their unique approach to scoring some of the biggest titles in both film and television, there is no question why they have quickly become one of the most well-known composing duos in the industry.
This interview contains broad questions about the composers themselves, their inspiration(s), what they do to decompress, advice to any young composer, in addition to some very fun details about their latest venture, Dr. Sleep!
CineConcerts (CC): The big question: why film music? What attracts you to film music and why?
Taylor: It is the way a story plays with the music and how that makes you feel. When you have good music for any genre, you really feel it. It hits you at your core. From a very young age, I continuously felt this way about music from songs, soundtracks - really anything that would hit you (emotionally) hard. Once you mix music with visuals and you feel that emotional impact - it’s very special. This is the reason I do this.
Andy: There is something very open about composing for film that is very unstructured at first. You obviously are working within the framework of the picture, but experimenting with what you think that should be musically always yields good results. It’s jumping off the plank of the ship in the ocean and discovering what you are going to try, and explore things that, frankly, at times won't be received well. But, that’s the fun part, and it’s a lot of fun for us. At the beginning of each project it’s not like we say, okay, we know what this style is going to be, it’s more like, what’s the story? What’s the project? What weird instruments or sounds can we use and what becomes a part of the process? It’s diving into a creative rabbit hole, and it’s incredibly fun.
CC: It’s like a puzzle that you have to figure out, and ultimately put the pieces together. You have the ability to make the perfect (musical) combination from a little bit of chaos. It’s almost like creating ‘structured chaos’ which ultimately translates musically to whatever you are seeing on-screen.
Andy: Yes! Structured chaos is a perfect term!
CC: You were talking about a moment - this synergy where things happen perfectly when you listen to music and see something on-screen at the same time. Was there something in your young life where this happened to you?
Taylor: When I watched E.T. and Elliott says goodbye to him at the end of the movie - along with millions of other kids I felt that sensation. Goosebumps. That synergy of everything coming together perfectly.
Andy: When I saw Star Wars very young, that affected me tremendously. But looking back on it now, I remember seeing Raiders of the Lost Ark when I was a bit older and having that same feeling when I left the theater. It wasn’t a feeling of this is what I want to do, but realizing that what I felt I wanted to feel again. It had everything to do with the synergy of the music with the film. When you are young, you don’t know what that is, or recognize that it is the music - you just remember the moment.
Taylor: It’s interesting how my answer would be different based on age. We were all so young when we watched those films, but if you had gone back to Bernard Hermann’s era with Vertigo, Psycho, can you imagine? I would probably say Vertigo just because when I saw that at a much older age, it blew my mind!
CC: It’s really incredible how many people John Williams has inspired. There is nothing quite like seeing a Spielberg movie on 35mm with an iconic John Williams score.
Taylor: So true. It’s funny too because the mentality of the way scores are created now vs. that time are so different. So much has changed. Andy and I always joke about always having to use Block Chords, where John was entirely about melody and forming chords around the melody. It’s interesting to us how people have become accustomed to certain melodic structures, and back in the day it was way more involved. We are missing that in some sense now, I think.
CC: Let’s talk about your composing process. You both are credited as The Newton Brothers officially, but what is your composing process like as individual composers, and how does that come together with the both of you?
Andy: We usually will sit down and spot the film with the director, producer, and take notes and talk about the film aesthetic - pretty much anything that needs discussion. Taylor and I will then have a short pow-wow - not about specific ideas or themes, just a general broad discussion about rough thematic ideas. We then go away individually and work on our own ideas so that we don’t influence each other early on. After that happens, we bring those ideas together and we will both play for each other and actually use each other as a filter and decide what we want to present for the director and producers. It’s a nice process because it allows us to put ourselves out there individually, and when we come back to each other before initial playback we can check each other. Sometimes, if we both disagree then we will play it for the director and let he/she make the creative decision on what’s working, and what’s not.
CC: Do you need visuals to compose, or can it be an idea that a director comes to you with? What is the creative ‘hook’ for you to start thinking musically?
Taylor: I like to have visuals, because sometimes a lot can be misunderstood with the story and characters. Not only that, but things definitely change during filming. I like to see anything visual, which allows me to know where I’m going musically. That is what resonates for me. In contrast, if I just have the script, I start imagining what it looks like - which may or may not be a good thing! If I know the director then I know how they will shoot it which can help, but there have definitely been instances where we’ve had to do a blind demo based on the script and that’s really tough. So, so much can be interpreted differently based on how things look on-screen.
Andy: It’s interesting because we have been doing more writing to script lately. Haunting of HIll House, for example. Most of that score was to the script - at least the thematic ideas, then each episode was scored. That was a bit stressful because Mike (Flanagan) told us what he was looking to achieve, so we sort of knew what it would look like but we never really knew until we saw footage. When you start getting footage, there is something that happens when you start playing the music back to picture. Something changes. You can say, I think the clarinet will be great as an instrument for this character, or that character, but when you have someone come in and play a part you wrote, you may realize it doesn’t work. That’s where the picture helps bring things together, but early on we form a gameplan of whatever info we are given whether it’s picture or script.
CC: Many composers have relationships with directors - could you talk about Haunting of Hill House and your working relationship with Mike Flanagan (the director) - what is your working relationship like? Do you have a shorthand?
Taylor: Every director is unique, and Mike is very talented all across the board. A lot of people don’t know that he’s also a very talented musician. He can hear notes, chord changes, edits and writes most of the projects he works on. Now he’s producing stuff, and is so incredibly talented. We were at his house not too long ago and his albums are all film music that all of us grew up listening to. There was E.T., Edward Scissorhands, Rudy, Cocoon, and so many other great scores. Since we are all the same age, we all have similar taste of stuff we love and grew up on. That foundation helps us grow and build a creative working relationship, and when you admire the other person you want to keep stepping up and doing the best you can. That, coupled with the shorthand we have learned with him is great. He can say, let’s do these wonder chords, which are these minor to major chords, and we just get it right away. It’s that type of shorthand - that aspect makes it unique. Also, I think what helps is that we aren’t precious about our music. If something doesn’t work, we will kill it just as fast as anyone else and pivot to exploring other avenues.
CC: I know there are times when you write a theme and really feel that it works. Has there been a time where you’ve really fought for a theme that may not have been the first idea of a producer (or a director), and ultimately changed their minds about the cue?
Taylor: On Oculus, that score was supposed to be a-tonal. They wanted noise, weird and scary sounds throughout. The specific direction was actually no melody - especially no piano. Throughout the composing process, we tried putting the theme in various places in the film which got yanked because it was too melodic. Now at the end of the movie, there is this grandiose ending - it’s insane what happens visually. We wrote this dark lullaby with choir and had an orchestra play this fully melodic piece that was ultimately very sad. We were like, oh man, Mike (Flanagan) and Trevor (Macy) are gonna hate it and be super bummed!, but we played it for them and they were like wow, this really works. That was one of the times when we took liberties to try something and it ultimately changed the original vision of the scene.
CC: It’s very clear to me that you love horror. What draws you to the genre?
Andy: The storytelling. For something to be scary,you really need to care about the characters. Who is being affected, and why? If you don’t care, it’s not scary. That’s what’s fun working within the genre. You can tell stories that are heartbreaking, sad, emotional - that makes it fun. Couple that with when things get emotionally or visually weird, we have a lot of fun trying to compose that sense of ‘weird’. Considering elements that make it into the film, there are so many things behind the scenes we try to do to get to that end result, and we have a lot of fun doing it. It’s a lot of work. As we navigate our creative road on any film, things always become more complicated. But generally we always come back to some very simple solutions for any complexities that arise.
CC: To your point, scary films can be intensely emotional. There seems to be a recurring composing style in your films, where (for example) you have a simple piano theme overlayed on what would be a scary scene. You have these moments where you compose a simple melody that accentuate a character’s emotion or fear.
Taylor: Every director has a style of filmmaking, and a certain sound that goes with that style of filmmaking. For example, if you listen to most of Mike’s films, there are differences between each one. Then, compare that to Extinction (dir. Ben Young) which is a sci-fi film - very different. We have a certain natural writing style because we know Mike’s taste and know the type of film he wants to make. Ben Young who directed Extinction has a different style and perception, so as composers we have to adjust to what the director wants. Sometimes we have to adjust quite a lot. WIth Mike’s stuff, you notice a tonal similarity - they are very connected because that’s who he is and that’s the kind of film(s) he wants to make.
CC: Dr. Sleep - a lot of people are excited about this film, as it follows a pinnacle Kubrick achievement. What was the creative process like, and what can we expect from not only the film but the music? Is there anything specific that you want people to pay attention to?
Andy: Mike (Flanagan) was telling us about Dr. Sleep when we were on the dub stage of Haunting of Hill House, and we didn’t discuss a ton of musical direction, but he already had in his head how he was going to shoot and edit scenes, and with this blueprint he was able to give us a full rundown. To fully prep, we spent a lot of time re-watching The Shining, re-reading the book, re-reading Dr. Sleep, and fully immersing ourselves in the Stephen King world. The only way we would feel comfortable getting behind it was to re-familiarize ourselves with everything, and immerse ourselves into the world. When we actually started recording, we used an instrument called a (Hurdy Grandé) Hurdy Grandé. I don’t want to give away too much, but it was all very specific to what is happening in the story, and of course we were inspired by The Shining. It made it a bit more daunting that the music from The Shining was more ‘needle drops’, and to make it even more complicated there was very complex music placed on other complex music - but it works very well in the original film. It makes you feel uncomfortable by what you hear, because in part its complete chaos, so we had that discussion early on. How do we achieve the feeling Mike wants, but stay in The Shining world to keep things interesting?
Taylor: That is exactly right. Strangely, we didn’t toy around with with anything until we re-read the book several times and took notes on the characters. We dug up old stories of Kubrick, and asked Mike tons of questions to the point of exhaustion. But ultimately, we went at it based on the characters in the book. We hadn’t seen anything other than the book and the script, and we wrote off those two things. Keep in mind that if we had entirely based the score on The Shining, it wouldn’t be very melodic, if any melody at all, so it was important to find a middle ground. Without giving anything away we wrote with ideas of both melodic and non-melodic in mind. Then we flew out to Atlanta and met with Mike (Flanagan) and Trevor (Macy) and chatted and saw the set, it was honestly surreal. Being a kid, seeing The Shining, then seeing what we were seeing on set. It went from insane amounts of excitement like, oh my God, we are scoring the sequel to The Shining <laughs>. Even though it’s definitely a separate story, it is very much a sequel. Finally when we saw some footage I chilled out and then started writing and doing what we do rather than think about what it is that we were actually doing!
Andy: Taylor and I have this joke whenever we were stressed out, or if we weren’t sure of changing something. Taylor would be like, it’s no big deal, it’s just the sequel to The Shining! <laughter>
Taylor: Yeah - that was our joke all the way to the end - when we were up multiple nights. Hey, no big deal… it’s just the sequel to The Shining! <laughter>
CC: Talk a little bit about how you paid tribute to the sound of the original film (The Shining).
Andy: Yes. We definitely wanted to recognize that we were part of The Shining in some way, but 20th century avant-garde music isn’t something you are frequently asked to do as a film composer. It was tricky. In horror music, you have more of an opportunity to do it, but we spent a few weeks doing various row series, where we would come up with 12 tone rows which is an interesting experiment in itself. We would see how we could come up with something that sits on its own - would be memorable in an interesting way while also serving the film well. It was very stressful but very fun - we stayed in the world, but made it our own thing.
CC: Talk about the Hurdy Grandé - was that the craziest instrument you used on this score?
Taylor: Yes! The Hurdy Grandé! This is the first time it’s ever been heard on a soundtrack. Nobody has ever heard this instrument before. We use it very specifically for some people in the story. There are these characters called the True Knot which are are perceived in the book like gypsies that have these vampiric elements about them. We really wanted to create something that would work well with those characters because we wanted people to hear a certain sound and element and know what those characters are. That was the approach we took, and of course we did separate things for different characters and wanted them all to cohease into The Shining universe. Finding the balance was a ton of fun. The Hurdy Grandé was the strangest and most bizarre instrument to record, mainly because it’s so big. The guy that built it (Paul Dresher) laid out like a Hurdy-Gurdy. There is a crank you can crank it with but it is fully open on top so you can adjust harmonics. It’s much more complicated and generates such rich tones and drones - it’s so so unique.
Taylor: Paul Dresher has an ensemble and has built all sorts of instruments. He does a series of concerts in the summer with some touring and shows. He’s so interesting, and a really delightful and talented human being.
CC: So what’s next? Haunting of Hill House 2? You guys are attached?
Taylor: We are! We are writing on it right now.
CC: Is there a specific track from a film you composed that you are particularly proud of - a track that works perfectly for any scene in either film/tv? Anything you want us to listen to?
Taylor: There is a track off this film called Detachment called Meredith. The entire album has some great tracks on it. There are elements of Haunting of Hill House in there. It’s really cool stuff.
Andy: There is a track from the film Before I Wake that is called What Happens When He Dreams, that we really love.
Taylor: Yeah! That track we are both super proud of. Before I Wake is a film that we co-scored with Danny Elfman. What Happens When He Dreams is a track where everything just came together perfectly. We love how it works in the film. It’s very orchestral with weird synth noises on top of a choir. It was a very fun track to write.
CC: Any advice for young, and aspiring film composers?
Taylor: It’s really interesting because out of all the ways one can become ‘a composer’ on big movies or television shows, it really varies. But there are a few consistent things.
You can apprentice for a high profile composer. This person most likely is super busy and not precious about every project being about them, and they can pass and hand projects over to you and give you opportunity. That is an excellent way to get in.
Work with your friends from college and your other friends who have come up to produce, direct, write, etc. You work with them and as they come up, so do you because you work together.
You have to put yourself out there. There are two instances I know of where composers got hired because of one track they posted on YouTube. They have never scored a film, but wanted to be a composer so they posted some of their work online. Directors or producers scrape the internet sometimes for moods, aesthetic pieces, etc. You never know who will see your material. Get your content out there or you will be missed even if you are the greatest artist in the world. People need to hear it!
Probably the most important thing, however, is that you always need to treat everyone with respect. It’s a small industry and there are a lot of people. You always need to be super gracious about what you do. That assistant who is low on the totem pole may be the head of the studio someday. Always greet people kindly. You have to stay humble and grounded.
CC: What do you do to decompress, and do for fun? Is there something specific that grounds you?
Andy: Running. When we get really crazy it gets tougher to run but i try to run at least 3 days a week. If its not complete insanity I’ll run 6-7 days a week because it keeps me sane. It hits the reset button. If I go for a run and watch the sun come up, everything will be fine
Taylor: I try to be outside as much as I can. I used to surf when I lived in Malibu, but I love being outside because you are so much in cave when you compose all the time - you start to go a little nuts. Being outside brings balance.
CC: You both become Jack Torrance from The Shining!
Taylor: You definitely start to go a little nutty.
Andy: All work and no play makes Taylor & Andy dull boys!